Comments on: Cycling and Doping: A Solution http://www.fatcyclist.com/2007/07/27/cycling-and-doping-a-solution/ It's like reality TV. Except it's real. And there's no TV. Fri, 04 Mar 2022 03:21:11 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9 hourly 1 By: Bob http://www.fatcyclist.com/2007/07/27/cycling-and-doping-a-solution/comment-page-2/#comment-38445 Bob Mon, 24 Sep 2007 04:16:16 +0000 http://www.fatcyclist.com/2007/07/27/cycling-and-doping-a-solution/#comment-38445 You are not the only sport on a serious melt down due to EPO. The handle in horse racing has dropped by the millions because of it. I had this same idea for a rule. The only differance is there would be no Dr.s notes cause trust me even Dr's lie. Hence unexceptable. The other differance is every time you go high after the first offence your suspended days and fines keep doubleing. You want the users out of the business before they kill it forever. You are not the only sport on a serious melt down due to EPO. The handle in horse racing has dropped by the millions because of it. I had this same idea for a rule. The only differance is there would be no Dr.s notes cause trust me even Dr’s lie. Hence unexceptable. The other differance is every time you go high after the first offence your suspended days and fines keep doubleing.
You want the users out of the business before they kill it forever.

]]> By: On Proposals to Stop Doping- Reduce the Suspension Periods? « Love, Life and Bicycles http://www.fatcyclist.com/2007/07/27/cycling-and-doping-a-solution/comment-page-2/#comment-30596 On Proposals to Stop Doping- Reduce the Suspension Periods? « Love, Life and Bicycles Mon, 13 Aug 2007 18:08:00 +0000 http://www.fatcyclist.com/2007/07/27/cycling-and-doping-a-solution/#comment-30596 [...] If that’s the case, a friend of Fat Cyclist offers another idea, which boils down to a comprehensive physiological “baseline” monitoring system of all cyclists from an early age, combined with reducing the severity of penalties. I think the idea is that in combination, these procedures would give authorities an individualized picture of each athlete. Testing would be sensitive to each individual rather than based on group averages. Better knowledge allows for more accurate positives, and shorter, more frequent(?) suspensions are sufficiently disruptive to discourage doping without turning into drawn-out legal battles. [...] [...] If that’s the case, a friend of Fat Cyclist offers another idea, which boils down to a comprehensive physiological “baseline” monitoring system of all cyclists from an early age, combined with reducing the severity of penalties. I think the idea is that in combination, these procedures would give authorities an individualized picture of each athlete. Testing would be sensitive to each individual rather than based on group averages. Better knowledge allows for more accurate positives, and shorter, more frequent(?) suspensions are sufficiently disruptive to discourage doping without turning into drawn-out legal battles. [...]

]]> By: kenny http://www.fatcyclist.com/2007/07/27/cycling-and-doping-a-solution/comment-page-1/#comment-28488 kenny Wed, 01 Aug 2007 05:47:04 +0000 http://www.fatcyclist.com/2007/07/27/cycling-and-doping-a-solution/#comment-28488 ? ?

]]> By: kenny http://www.fatcyclist.com/2007/07/27/cycling-and-doping-a-solution/comment-page-1/#comment-28483 kenny Wed, 01 Aug 2007 05:37:03 +0000 http://www.fatcyclist.com/2007/07/27/cycling-and-doping-a-solution/#comment-28483 you look Marvelous, but why do you have two belly buttons. you look Marvelous, but why do you have two belly buttons.

]]> By: Jay http://www.fatcyclist.com/2007/07/27/cycling-and-doping-a-solution/comment-page-1/#comment-28383 Jay Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:10:12 +0000 http://www.fatcyclist.com/2007/07/27/cycling-and-doping-a-solution/#comment-28383 Bothed, First of all let me congratulate you on a very thoughtful and thought provoking article. I agree with much of what you say. However for ethical reasons alone I cannot and will not condone cheating. It's a fine line but legalized cheating is still cheating. The problem as i see it is in leadership. Look at the guys in charge of just about any sport and you can see the problem. Years ago I was a runner and the AAU officials put themselves on a pedistal above the atheletes. If you look back on the battle between the AAU and the NCAA of years ago you will see startling simalarities between that and what is going on with cycling today. It's all about power with the atheletes themselves as mere pawns. Recently i watched an IAAF track meet. A big time one. Some idiot official miscounted the laps in the 3000M SC. His entire job was to watch the guys run around the track and flip a lap card each time and when it hit one ring the bell for the last lap. Sounds easy....is easy and he fucked it up. probably flipped two cards at the same time....whatever. The point is these guys don't give a shit about the atheletes they care about there little slice of power and mixing with the big boys. If you look at cycling as a sport it is not a very highly paid profession. Never really has been. The riders usually come from humble backgrounds and often use cycling as a way out much as boxers have done for quite some time in the US. The lure of winning even one stage in the Tour de France is compelling as a way to insure ones future. Not to mention how much money is there for the team of the overall winner. Not all cyclists make millions most bump along as most of us do. Doing something that I hope they love for little glory and even less money. When they sprint for that 800 Euro prime it's because they need it. Then there is the sad case of Cristian Moreni. He wasn't going to win the tour he was never in a break and he had to use dope to be in 54th place. My question is why would he feel the need to dope. Then there are the officials. Guys like Richard Pound head of WADA. Slick Dick was a swimmer a pretty good one. Competed in the Olympics for Canada. You'd think that would make him somewhat sympathetic to the plight of athletes. However if you look at his background and the amature code he was brought up in you'll see that he has almost no relation to the people he is supposed to govern. Dick Pound is an elitist as are most of the others at the heads of all the myriad athletic agencies world wide. As i see it the problem isn't doping or the riders. It's the idiots running the show. You can no more expect them to understand the plight of the atheletes then the crooked boxing promoters in this country. It's clear to me that Cyclist need a union of some kind to protect them from this exploitation. No the solution is not giving up to it. The solution is to empower the riders themselves so that they no longer feel the need to cheat. Bothed,
First of all let me congratulate you on a very thoughtful and thought provoking article. I agree with much of what you say. However for ethical reasons alone I cannot and will not condone cheating. It’s a fine line but legalized cheating is still cheating. The problem as i see it is in leadership. Look at the guys in charge of just about any sport and you can see the problem. Years ago I was a runner and the AAU officials put themselves on a pedistal above the atheletes. If you look back on the battle between the AAU and the NCAA of years ago you will see startling simalarities between that and what is going on with cycling today. It’s all about power with the atheletes themselves as mere pawns. Recently i watched an IAAF track meet. A big time one. Some idiot official miscounted the laps in the 3000M SC. His entire job was to watch the guys run around the track and flip a lap card each time and when it hit one ring the bell for the last lap. Sounds easy….is easy and he fucked it up. probably flipped two cards at the same time….whatever. The point is these guys don’t give a shit about the atheletes they care about there little slice of power and mixing with the big boys.

If you look at cycling as a sport it is not a very highly paid profession. Never really has been. The riders usually come from humble backgrounds and often use cycling as a way out much as boxers have done for quite some time in the US. The lure of winning even one stage in the Tour de France is compelling as a way to insure ones future. Not to mention how much money is there for the team of the overall winner. Not all cyclists make millions most bump along as most of us do. Doing something that I hope they love for little glory and even less money. When they sprint for that 800 Euro prime it’s because they need it. Then there is the sad case of Cristian Moreni. He wasn’t going to win the tour he was never in a break and he had to use dope to be in 54th place. My question is why would he feel the need to dope.

Then there are the officials. Guys like Richard Pound head of WADA. Slick Dick was a swimmer a pretty good one. Competed in the Olympics for Canada. You’d think that would make him somewhat sympathetic to the plight of athletes. However if you look at his background and the amature code he was brought up in you’ll see that he has almost no relation to the people he is supposed to govern. Dick Pound is an elitist as are most of the others at the heads of all the myriad athletic agencies world wide. As i see it the problem isn’t doping or the riders. It’s the idiots running the show. You can no more expect them to understand the plight of the atheletes then the crooked boxing promoters in this country. It’s clear to me that Cyclist need a union of some kind to protect them from this exploitation.

No the solution is not giving up to it. The solution is to empower the riders themselves so that they no longer feel the need to cheat.

]]> By: AMG in Texas http://www.fatcyclist.com/2007/07/27/cycling-and-doping-a-solution/comment-page-1/#comment-28371 AMG in Texas Tue, 31 Jul 2007 20:16:17 +0000 http://www.fatcyclist.com/2007/07/27/cycling-and-doping-a-solution/#comment-28371 Botched - you are amazing! Thanks for you ideas. There will be no way cycling can clean itself up until each individual rider cleans themselves morally. This is a moral issue... cheaters are greedy, the system they work for idolizes the winners and forgets about the rest in the peloton. Why dont they make all the race results based on the entire teams time? So who cares who crosses the line 1st... it the the combined time of all of the team members that counts for the stage winner. Add time penalties for teams with fewer riders (since they would get the slowest guys to drop out to improve the combined team time). While you are at it, have complete unknown non cyclists (fans picked at random) added to each team to give it more of a variable. Like have a lottery to assign these non cyclists to the teams. Now we would be more interested in seeing these old, fat, bald, middle aged guys huff and puff to the finish than these dopers!!! Combined time wins. Give financial incentives to these non cyclist to try to get them to go farther, faster. Have a distance/speed matrix to give less time penalties based on the performance of these non cyclist smucks. Another way to control the doping is to have salary caps. If you earn more money than the salary limit (since you are so successful then you have to be doping), then have the excess monies be given to charity. Then the idea will be "let them dope, it is for charity and not for personal gain". For more entertaining cycling is to have creative costumes competitions, bike trick routines, team trick riding, and joke telling. Why not have a creative bike toss competition? Helmet kicking contests, water bottle fights, team cheerleading chants... I can hear them now: "We are davitamon-lotto" "and this is our team motto" "we win at all costs" "and nary a loss" "'cuz we are dvaitamon-lotto" "Shoulder to shoulder" "knee to knee" "come on Discovery" "on to victory!!!" :-) Botched – you are amazing! Thanks for you ideas. There will be no way cycling can clean itself up until each individual rider cleans themselves morally. This is a moral issue… cheaters are greedy, the system they work for idolizes the winners and forgets about the rest in the peloton.

Why dont they make all the race results based on the entire teams time? So who cares who crosses the line 1st… it the the combined time of all of the team members that counts for the stage winner. Add time penalties for teams with fewer riders (since they would get the slowest guys to drop out to improve the combined team time).

While you are at it, have complete unknown non cyclists (fans picked at random) added to each team to give it more of a variable. Like have a lottery to assign these non cyclists to the teams. Now we would be more interested in seeing these old, fat, bald, middle aged guys huff and puff to the finish than these dopers!!! Combined time wins. Give financial incentives to these non cyclist to try to get them to go farther, faster. Have a distance/speed matrix to give less time penalties based on the performance of these non cyclist smucks.

Another way to control the doping is to have salary caps. If you earn more money than the salary limit (since you are so successful then you have to be doping), then have the excess monies be given to charity. Then the idea will be “let them dope, it is for charity and not for personal gain”.

For more entertaining cycling is to have creative costumes competitions, bike trick routines, team trick riding, and joke telling. Why not have a creative bike toss competition? Helmet kicking contests, water bottle fights, team cheerleading chants…

I can hear them now:
“We are davitamon-lotto”
“and this is our team motto”
“we win at all costs”
“and nary a loss”
“‘cuz we are dvaitamon-lotto”

“Shoulder to shoulder”
“knee to knee”
“come on Discovery”
“on to victory!!!”
:-)

]]> By: Caloi-Rider http://www.fatcyclist.com/2007/07/27/cycling-and-doping-a-solution/comment-page-1/#comment-28352 Caloi-Rider Tue, 31 Jul 2007 18:19:19 +0000 http://www.fatcyclist.com/2007/07/27/cycling-and-doping-a-solution/#comment-28352 That's the real key—it's not in catching dopers, but in creating a stronger disincentive to doping. "But what could create a stronger disincentive than a 2-year ban?" you ask. Actually, right now, I think the 2-year ban threat is just making it more exciting for the dopers. Ooo, what if you get caught ... The trouble is that people still seem to worship former dopers—Pantani (and, yes, I was a Pantani fan), Virenque, and to some extent Hamilton and Landis (I'm not convicting, I'm just sayin')—so there's still an incentive to dope even if you get caught. I think when we can communicate to the riders that Pantani was actually a repugnant little punk because he doped or that Virenque is no more heroic than a dishonest used car salesman, or that dopers in general deserve no more sympathy than the algae I found living in my Camelbak the other day, then, perhaps, we'll see doping taper off. But the fact of the matter is that as long as there is science, there will be doping. That’s the real key—it’s not in catching dopers, but in creating a stronger disincentive to doping. “But what could create a stronger disincentive than a 2-year ban?” you ask. Actually, right now, I think the 2-year ban threat is just making it more exciting for the dopers. Ooo, what if you get caught …
The trouble is that people still seem to worship former dopers—Pantani (and, yes, I was a Pantani fan), Virenque, and to some extent Hamilton and Landis (I’m not convicting, I’m just sayin’)—so there’s still an incentive to dope even if you get caught.
I think when we can communicate to the riders that Pantani was actually a repugnant little punk because he doped or that Virenque is no more heroic than a dishonest used car salesman, or that dopers in general deserve no more sympathy than the algae I found living in my Camelbak the other day, then, perhaps, we’ll see doping taper off.
But the fact of the matter is that as long as there is science, there will be doping.

]]> By: TimK http://www.fatcyclist.com/2007/07/27/cycling-and-doping-a-solution/comment-page-1/#comment-28345 TimK Tue, 31 Jul 2007 16:28:08 +0000 http://www.fatcyclist.com/2007/07/27/cycling-and-doping-a-solution/#comment-28345 Ever read Kurt Vonnegut's "Harrison Begeron?" The idea of equality and trying to make things fair is a bit silly in my humble opinion. The idea of trying to tell someone that they can't do something to try to make themselves more competitive is possibly sillier. Here's one of Mr. Vonnegut's masterpieces - I am sure that Al M. could modify the text as needed to illustrate its relationship to cycling. http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/hb.html Ever read Kurt Vonnegut’s “Harrison Begeron?”

The idea of equality and trying to make things fair is a bit silly in my humble opinion. The idea of trying to tell someone that they can’t do something to try to make themselves more competitive is possibly sillier.

Here’s one of Mr. Vonnegut’s masterpieces – I am sure that Al M. could modify the text as needed to illustrate its relationship to cycling.
http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/hb.html

]]> By: Born 4 Lycra http://www.fatcyclist.com/2007/07/27/cycling-and-doping-a-solution/comment-page-1/#comment-28320 Born 4 Lycra Tue, 31 Jul 2007 12:23:44 +0000 http://www.fatcyclist.com/2007/07/27/cycling-and-doping-a-solution/#comment-28320 Well FC you certainly have some intelligent readers there are some excellent points of view posted here. Botched I can see your point and rationale but I think like some previous correspondents I do not want to condone the taking of drugs in any form. I'm not against your argument I just don't feel comfortable with it... yet. It might turn out to be the necessary answer in the long term but at present I still cling to the hope that doping in all forms can be wiped out. I also cling to the hope that Euskaltel can produce a decent world class sprinter, an Aussie can win the Tour and that Aus can also produce a team good enough to ride in the big tours. Well FC you certainly have some intelligent readers there are some excellent points of view posted here. Botched I can see your point and rationale but I think like some previous correspondents I do not want to condone the taking of drugs in any form. I’m not against your argument I just don’t feel comfortable with it… yet. It might turn out to be the necessary answer in the long term but at present I still cling to the hope that doping in all forms can be wiped out. I also cling to the hope that Euskaltel can produce a decent world class sprinter, an Aussie can win the Tour and that Aus can also produce a team good enough to ride in the big tours.

]]> By: TheLurker http://www.fatcyclist.com/2007/07/27/cycling-and-doping-a-solution/comment-page-1/#comment-28303 TheLurker Tue, 31 Jul 2007 07:57:30 +0000 http://www.fatcyclist.com/2007/07/27/cycling-and-doping-a-solution/#comment-28303 "Why then, does it matter if one rider gets to 49 hematocrit by using an altitude tent, another goes and lives at 12,000 feet of elevation, another uses EPO, and another uses a blood transfusion? The result is an equal playing field with all the riders at a crit value of about 50." Because the first two are allowing the body to respond to external stimuli at a rate the whole system can cope with and one assumes that (as with other exercise) once that stimulus is removed the body will return to its original state none the worse for wear. Using EPO (or other hormones) to disrupt the endocrine(?) system is likely to leave the body in a worse state than before. For example. In addition to the widely known problem of blood thickening leading to thromboses and heart attack use of synthetic EPO leaves the body less able to produce its own EPO and the result is anaemia. Accidents that result in injuries from minor to life threatening are part of racing and training to race (and even commuting) but they are not an inevitable consequence. Health problems, from minor to life threatening, are, as far as I have seen, an inevitable part of doping and I want no part, not even as a spectator, especially not as a spectator, of that. What's really depressing is that we're having _this_ discussion _again_ instead of talking (arguing) about the who the best road/track/mtb/cross cyclist in the world is. *sigh* “Why then, does it matter if one rider gets to 49 hematocrit by using an altitude tent, another goes and lives at 12,000 feet of elevation, another uses EPO, and another uses a blood transfusion? The result is an equal playing field with all the riders at a crit value of about 50.”

Because the first two are allowing the body to respond to external stimuli at a rate the whole system can cope with and one assumes that (as with other exercise) once that stimulus is removed the body will return to its original state none the worse for wear. Using EPO (or other hormones) to disrupt the endocrine(?) system is likely to leave the body in a worse state than before. For example. In addition to the widely known problem of blood thickening leading to thromboses and heart attack use of synthetic EPO leaves the body less able to produce its own EPO and the result is anaemia.

Accidents that result in injuries from minor to life threatening are part of racing and training to race (and even commuting) but they are not an inevitable consequence. Health problems, from minor to life threatening, are, as far as I have seen, an inevitable part of doping and I want no part, not even as a spectator, especially not as a spectator, of that.

What’s really depressing is that we’re having _this_ discussion _again_ instead of talking (arguing) about the who the best road/track/mtb/cross cyclist in the world is. *sigh*

]]>